EPISODE 2: Dr. Kevin Gilliland, PsyD
INTRO CREDITS: This is... This IS Fine! This is fine. This is fine. This is fine. This is... a poor substitute for therapy, but an excellent substitute for Joe...other podcasts. We'Re NoT LiKe OtHeR pOdCaStS. Join us as we find the answers to the universe's biggest questions like is butter a carb? Does crying burn calories? And what the **** am I doing with my life? We're here to be your part time therapist, astrologer, concierge doctor, and fairy godmother. Do you need someone to validate you today? Cool, cool. Cool. Come on in. We're fine. This is fine.
GUEST INTRO: Welcome back to this week's episode of This Is Fine! I hope your summer is as hot girl as it can be. And of course, I hope you're fine. If you haven't been to therapy recently, we have a lot in common, but also even if you have been to therapy recently, you're going to really jive with today's episode because a surprise I brought in a therapist... You are welcome.
Today we have an absolute genius with us — one of the most brilliant people I've worked with in my entire career, and someone I immediately connected to: Dr. Kevin Gilliland, a clinical psychologist and Director of Innovation 360 in Dallas, Texas. Dr. Gilliland is also the host of another incredible podcast called "Struggle Well. Live Well. Worry Less." I highly recommend you go check that out after this episode. Dr. G has been an exceptional inspiration to me as a health care professional and as an individual whose honesty and vulnerability always leaves me awestruck, and he has such a wonderful way with words and the best feel good advice. I feel like I'm about to share a very special gift with you right now because you'll now get about an hour of hearing his exceptional words of wisdom just absorb all of his good energy.
AD: Today's episode is brought to you by Picnic Health. If you're someone who regularly sees the inside of a doctor's office and you need a little help keeping all your record straight, or you aspire to be the kind of person who gets an annual physical has a dermatologist and is on top of all their medical shit. Picnic health is your ultimate resource for your entire health history. Picnic health allows you to take ownership over your health and easily access every single record lab results scan and more down to the doctor's notes. Trust me, I've seen mine. Navigating health care can be scary and intimidating. But picnic health makes it so much easier. You also have the option to anonymously and securely contribute to health research that's working toward finding cures for over a dozen diseases, which also makes your membership totally free $0 a month for you to learn more about owning your health. Visit picnichealth.com.
EPISODE
Dominique 2:30
Dr. G. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm so grateful. You're our very first recording of This Is Fine! podcast. How do you feel?
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 2:42
Honored? Special ... and a little bit of pressure. It's a mix of things!
Dominique Astorino 2:51
I'm not just trying to mirror you right now... But I feel the exact same way.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 2:56
Just so looking forward to it. I have loved all of our conversations over the years and I'm like, golly, I wish people could just listen to what life is like for us.
Dominique Astorino 3:07
Literally since the first time I ever talked to you. I think it was a Huffington Post article like several years ago, I want to say like, over four years ago, I was working on something probably for HuffPo. And I just remember talking to you on the phone and being like, this is someone I need to keep talking to for forever.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 3:25
Well, look, the feeling is mutual. You just have one of these really fascinating... You're just fascinated by humans as I am...
Dominique Astorino 3:35
Yeah, it's a curiosity, right?
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 3:37
I'm telling you both from a "Hey, how can I help them?" And "How in the hell do I help ME?"
Dominique Astorino 3:43
But also, I'm a mess.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 3:45
Oh, yeah. And also me. Yeah, it's so that's what I've loved is all of those conversations and following you on Instagram...
Dominique Astorino 3:54
Oh ditto, yeah our love for dogs and nature...
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 3:57
... Oh and the beach. I'm like, oh, that's all those. That's all good medicine for me. And we talk about that all the time — life is full of good medicine. Just get out there and get into it. And sometimes that's the hardest part, which I find wildly irritating as someone who paid a lot of money — slow learner — and went to school for a really frickin long time. You're going, I mean, I didn't go to school so that I could help myself. I went just because well I had nothing else to do. But I was fascinated by humans and you just go... It's so disappointing. To have all that knowledge and to find yourself struggling with the exact same thing you talk about everyday with people.
Dominique Astorino 4:44
Yeah, it is a crazy sensation. Right? You're like I'm supposed to know this, I'm supposed to be the expert...
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 4:50
yeah. Oh my gosh, and and so now it's it's humbling. It's encouraging. It's wildly entertaining. I literally Dominique I'm not kidding you last week, I was just on the struggle bus like that's how I started my day. And I'm like, mother Butler, it's just a hard day hard day hard day, I go into have a session with a client and I was having a hard time on one specific subject. I go in to see a patient, you just can't make this up. And I'm like, Are you effing kidding me? Like the whole session was about this very issue in their life. And I'm like, in my head, I just felt like there needed to be this flashing light under what I was saying this like, hypocrite hypocrite. Because I'm like, cuz I'm sitting here talking to you like, "Hey, here's what, you got it," and I'm like, hypocrite, HYPOCRITE! And I'm like, but I didn't. And instead, I was like, wow, yeah, this really is this issue in my life. But I'm talking to them. And it was incredibly helpful for me having that conversation with like...
Dominique Astorino 5:58
Oh it's mirrored back to you!
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 6:00
Oh, it's very weird. That happened a lot with COVID... Usually, people are coming in, and I'm not part of the story. They're dealing with an issue at college, or they're dealing with an issue with their adult kids, or in their marriage, or someone's died, or they have an illness. Well, with this one, we're all part of the story. I'm going through COVID. My kids and my wife are going through a COVID. I can't go to my gym. I haven't, you know, so, you're like holy cow...
Dominique Astorino 6:37
It's a unifying experience that we all, in different ways, went through. You know, different you know, what do I want to say? Like, the minutia is different, but the overall experience is unifying.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 6:48
Yeah. But yeah, but 80% of it, we can all relate to, and you go, Okay, if you're not affected by COVID, I guarantee you, your mom, your dad, your best friend, your friend that has that little coffee shop, or the guy that you know, that has that gym that I always wanted to start in, you're like, ah, you know, so it's, it really is [unifying]. So that's, that's been challenging. And I clearly, because we kept seeing patients, I work at an outpatient practice a big practice... innovation 360 here in Dallas. And so we kept seeing patients we socially distanced we did all that stuff that's to stay safe and healthy. And, and I'm not kidding you, Dom I bet... I have never in my life, for the whole first year of COVID, I have never had so many people like patients and family members go "How are YOU doing?"
Dominique Astorino 7:45
Yeah...
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 7:46
No one ever cares how I'm doing! So it led me... It led me to the conclusion of "I just must look like hell!"
Dominique Astorino 7:52
Oh, no!!!
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 7:53
I just must look like a dumpster fire people are like "Holy shit, how are YOU?" I was like, golly...
Dominique Astorino 7:59
Are you okay??? "I'M FINE!!"
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 8:04
Yes .... no one ever cares how I'm doing! And so I don't think I looked like a dumpster fire. But maybe I kind of did. You know, of just going ... it affects all of us.
Dominique Astorino 8:18
Well, like maybe to me, I'm like jumping into like, reassure you. I'm like, no, no, no, I just would imagine....
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 8:23
Yeah, "Oh, no Kevin, you were fine." I'm like, No, Dom. I was a DUMPSTER FIRE.
Dominique Astorino 8:27
No, I'm damn mess. But actually, like, I thought about this a lot actually like how healthcare workers and mental health care providers were doing, are doing during this time period. And I think it's kind of like a global reflection and reckoning not all of us think about how our doctors and health care providers are doing in general, but then, you know, this stuff hits us. And we're like, oh, that's probably really hard for them to actually started thinking a little bit outside of ourselves, which might have been a little bit of a positive right.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 8:56
I tell you, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I tried to pass it off. You know, and I, if you're lucky, and I feel lucky, that you end up in a field that you enjoy, and you're good at it, it's not as hard. And so I feel like and I've been doing this for a little over 330 years, a little over 30 years, and let's just call it 30. These have been the hardest two years, professionally that I've ever had, because of all the challenges personally, business wise, with clients, some of the legal work that I do, it's... the level of human suffering and loss is astronomical.
Dominique Astorino 9:40
And I imagine you're a bit of an empath. Like just being in this field, taking on the emotions and the experiences of other people.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 9:48
Well, and I do a little I've also got that blend of business, and sort of research acumen. And so some of that has been protective. But man COVID blew right through that margin! Oh, that is gone. And you're like, Holy hell. I mean, I kept saying people are like, Hey, how you doing? I'm like, Look, I'm trying to live like I talk. And it comes back to. Yeah, I have great days. And I laugh and I try to get out. But man, oof you no knowledge does not equal relief. We can know we're gonna go ... and we all know this, right? Because, you know, oh, yeah, no, I know, going through this. I'm gonna go do this. And it's gonna be hard, but it's gonna be worth it. And you go, Oh, yeah, it's frickin hard. Now, I gotta wait for the it's going to be worth it. And so, you know, knowing that challenges and doing them are separate things. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. In full disclosure, right. So I've always stayed physically active. I know about nutrition. It since it's just you and I, I gained more weight and COVID than I have ever I weighed the heaviest I've ever weighed in my life.
Dominique Astorino 11:02
Yeah, and you're not the only one at all! Like, that's such a common experience right now.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 11:07
Millions of us. And I'm like, but that's not what was driving me insane. What drove me insane was well, one. I'm not kidding you. It was. It's the heaviest I've ever been. And I'm like, What in the hell? This is not me. This isn't behavior. This not my body. And to make it worse. I was doing zero physically. ZERO. And now mind you have done three Ironman races I've done a marathon. I've been in a gym all my life. I wasn't even going to the mailbox I'm like, ah screw it! I'm like, what is happening to me?!
Dominique Astorino 11:41
It so validating that you say that though, and I know, we've talked about this, you know, personally, but you know, for the sake of, you know, this podcast conversation, the same thing happened to me. And you know, my background, like, I'm a certified health coach. And I've been writing about fitness for years. And that's my entire career, like at one point, you know, not in the healthiest of ways. But I was working out like three times a day, my most gnarly phase of life. And yeah, same. I wasn't taking my dog out for walks. The poor baby I just didn't have anything in me to just get up and move. And that was my favorite thing to do. It was my ultimate mental health... not coping mechanism, I would say but just general, like mental health maintenance. What is happening? What happened to us?
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 12:22
I know. And it's so you know, and I just had to look at it like a problem to solve, because it was starting to mentally and emotionally, really beat me down,
Dominique Astorino 12:36
It eats away at you.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 12:37
And I'm like, what? Yeah, I'm like, what is wrong? I know this, but I don't. And that's where you go, okay. When we've been down, like we've been down on a daily basis for months and months and months, and you come up a little, then you're back down, you go, well, you're gonna lose some energy. Your things that used to be interesting, aren't as interesting. And that's ... our motivation is down and you're like, Okay, so I get it's a reflection of the world we're living in. How do I personally get going? And man, it was a nonstop carnival of me trying to problem solve it. Now one of the things that did help that I did get out of it was STOP THINKING. Just your way overthinking. You know it, just go do it. Go and walk, I had to... I mean, I had to set the bar ridiculously low, which then took me a week of self hatred, of setting such a low bar, but I'm like, I don't care. At this point. I don't even care that I have self hatred. I'm trying to move these feet. And so I'm like, Screw it, I'm gonna have a little self hatred to move. And I valued walking, walking was what I did, to light the fires of other things. And so that's what I would encourage people with this, if you had a mindset about 'this is physical activity,' and you haven't been able to do it or mindset of healthy eating, or connecting with other people. You may have to set a ridiculous bar, all you're looking to do is get movement. And so I was like, "You know what? Yeah, you know what, I don't stand there every night with toothpaste or brush going, is it worth it?" I just do it. I just jump into it. Yeah. And so I'm like, I'm going to do the same with walking. I'm not going to wander I'm just going to do it and that slowly got going but I'm not kidding you. It took me probably nine or 10 months to lose the weight that I gained.
Dominique Astorino 14:46
Wow.And it's so much easier to lose it than it is to gain it.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 14:49
Oh my gosh, and not as fun either. And so, you know, for me, it was like okay, it I think it also and you and I talk about this a lot. Just be Fair, be fair that what you're trying to course correct is challenging. Number one in the best of times. These are not the best of times. They are insane...
Dominique Astorino 15:14
It was the worst of times, it was the worst of times.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 15:16
Right? So I'm like, okay, man, we just got to start being fair. And, and then we're going to get some momentum to get going. And I think just being candid about it, and people talking about it in a much better way. I had a client that I was seeing this is probably a year ago, he was probably in his mid to late 30s young family ran a company. I've been seeing him for a couple of months. And he says to me goes, gosh, he goes, "Man, you know, I was talking with my wife about stuff and having all these responsibilities." And he goes, "And then I look at you. And I go, man, yeah, Kevin's a busy guy, but he's doing this and he's doing this, and he's enjoy life." And I just kind of smile and I was like, Gah, man. That's such a wonderful story. I can't tell you how bad I wish that was true. What else did you make up about me? Like, I have full head of hair cuz I mean, like you're making... you're just making shit up... I don't know what to tell you.
Dominique Astorino 16:17
While you're writing the script of the movie of my life, like what else can we add?
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 16:22
Yeah, you gotta add in a lot more bumps and bruises and dumpster fire. Yes, overall, I'm keeping it, you know, from burning the building down. But, man, are you kidding me with with the description you just laid out.
Dominique Astorino 16:37
It's so funny, though. Like, from his perspective, so many of us, including ourselves, do that to other people. But we think that we're the mess. I mean, all of us are the mess if we think about it, but we look at people who we admire people who we respect, and we're like, oh, they must have it all together. And I know that most people have come to terms with like, no one has it all together. But we still do it in practice. Like we look at our doctors or psychologists or mentors, and our hairstylist, we're just like, Wow, do you have your life? So together? And I don't, but someone might be thinking not about you.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 17:07
Oh, I'm telling you, I really have I have completely shifted where I'm like, the people that I admire, I'm like, Okay, I love that you're doing what you're doing. What does it cost you? What's the price to pay for success. And by success, yeah, by success. I mean, you graduated high school, or you're married to someone you love, or you've started a family, or you finish college, or you have a job you love, or you're living someplace you love, and you don't care what you do for a living? What if you've been successful, and we ... we do not help ourselves by going, "Ahh I'm not on the cover of Fortune magazine, or I don't have my..." you go, Look, I'm telling you, that's overrated, right? And you go, if you're successful, you're struggling, you've had to pay a price you, you missed out on some things that other people got to do, because you wanted to get good at or you wanted to achieve this. And it's, I think, if you start listening to really wonderful people, they talk about it really well. I mean, they enjoy what they're doing, and they get to do but man, they have their days or their nights that are just like you and me, we all have those.
Dominique Astorino 18:27
That's such a good perspective that every successful thing that you see in someone else, or that you see in yourself has some kind of cost. And not necessarily a monetary cost, but a time cost, a sanity cost. Like, there's a cost to every good thing that we achieve.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 18:41
Oh, every great achievement requires a sacrifice. Period. Again, whether it's school or you want to learn how to be a phenomenal tattoo artist, or you want to start a family or you want to get married. You go. Okay, awesome! And you're doing it. Well, you're gonna miss out on... 'no, I'm not going to do that,' or, 'Oh, I'd love to do that. But I'm not...' because I'm having to miss or I'm having to go and do these things. Because I want to; I want to achieve this or be able to do this and you go, well, that's okay. It should be worth it. Right. You shouldn't always be paying or sacrificeing.
Dominique Astorino 19:27
Right, right, right...
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 19:27
Man. And if you find what you love, and I don't care, I don't care the time it takes for the inconvenience because it's worth it
Dominique Astorino 19:36
Yeah, that's when you know, you're really in the flow.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 19:39
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it does and then COVID hits you, and you're like... holy cow
Dominique Astorino 19:44
Right?! Well, okay. Like on this note of like achieving success and having to make sacrifices, it kind of brings it back full circle to both of us trying to get "back on the wagon," when we were both, you know, full fledged, I don't want to say couch potatoes because that's such a dated phrase, but I cannot think of anything else besides feeling like a potato? And living on the couch?
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 20:04
Yeah...
Dominique Astorino 20:06
So, I mean...
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 20:08
Also known ... as a couch potato
Dominique Astorino 20:10
A couch potato. Yeah, my entire world was the couch. And yeah, I still kind of feel like a potato. But both of us. What I think is funny right now is you listen to a lot of like motivational speeches, psychologists, podcasts, and they're like, "Raise the bar! Raise the bar!" And what we're saying right now, what you're saying is "Actually..! Put that bar right back on the floor."
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 20:31
Start at the lowest imaginable and get moving. Because here's the thing is, you can raise the bar, if you have some movement,
Dominique Astorino 20:41
Right, if you're already in motion.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 20:44
Yeah, if you've got a little bit of movement, yeah, raise the bar. But if you're stuck on the couch, you just need movement. Yeah, anything that is a low bar, I'll never forget, I had this physical therapist, that is just, she's a godsend. And so I had just finished an Ironman, and I had hurt my shoulder. Yeah, um, thank you. And I had hurt my shoulder, had to have surgery on it. And so she was, you know, working on it. And she said, have you, you know, you can start doing a little bit more physically and, and she could tell I was down. And I was like, yeah, no, but no, I have it. She goes to a you know, you can ride a recumbent bike. And I looked at her with, and I was, I mean, I need to follow up and go, Hey, what was that? Because I feel like it was just with disgust. Anger. Are you kidding so? Yeah, I just wrote 112 miles a cup, like a month and a half ago on an actual bike and you're telling me to sit on a recumbent bike. It just made me so mad. I just, and at the time, I was so down from the injury. And I'd gone from being really physically active, which, is for me is good medicine, to not, to being injured. And she said that I'm like, it just that pisses me off so much. I'm sure it was an ass I need to write her. It's we're talking about I'm like, I need to jot a note go, Hey, by the way, my bad.
Dominique Astorino 22:24
If you're listening today, he's very sorry.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 22:25
Sarah, I'm so sorry. I was a colossal ass. But but you just go. It took me literally Dominique, it took me probably a week and a half to get what she was saying, which is you're not moving. You need to move. This is a way you can move and it took me a while to get our you know her on for, you know, when I'm bitching, being all Mr. Negative on the way out, oh my gosh, hopefully most of that didn't come out of my head. And, and it took a while to go, Hey, dude, just move. You need to just move. I think that's all she was saying. Just start pedaling on a recumbent bike. Because you know, it's going to lead to something else. And that's where if you've been out of the office or withdrawn and isolated, I went back and looked at notes for almost 10 years, I have been saying that isolation is the most savage of mental health symptoms. And it is we see it with people with cancer treatment with cardiovascular disease, with depression, with chronic pain. It is terrible for humans. And now you see people not going back to things that are so important for our physical and psychological health. Because they're worried and I'm like, You have got to move. You have my dentist, literally when saw my dentists like couple weeks ago. He's like, man, he goes, I can tell you how many mouthguards I've made in the past two years for people grinding their teeth. Like, really, he goes, Oh, I'm like, even they see the stress. And he goes, I'm sorry, I'm late. That's this young woman that I've worked with for a while and she didn't look good. And I'm like, why aren't you? Are you back in work? She's like, No, he's like, why aren't you back? This is a dentist and I'm not taking a shot at dentists but they don't tend to be psychologically mindful. And he is saying to her go back to work. You need to be back in the office. This is not good for you. And I'm like yes, even dentist, every dentists 'Get your ass in the office.' I mean, you need those interpersonal vitamins. And the majority of us get our interpersonal vitamins from the office... and you go What, Why aren't you there? Okay, the convenience, I get that. But you're paying a price. Your physical and psychological health is diminished.
Dominique Astorino 24:59
Damn. I've been working from home for like four years.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 25:03
Okay, but that is a very different thing. Because I worked from home 20 years ago, 15 years ago in the pharmaceutical industry, but I knew I was going into that. Yeah, I had a plan for it. From day one. I was like, Okay, this is challenging. So I need to make sure I do these things. The rest of the world was in an OK place, right? And so I had the mindset going into it. Whereas it's like, if you if you run a marathon, and you know you're running a marathon, you're like, yeah, that's, that's what I set out to do. But if we just go for a run, and you and you keep telling me, hey, one more mile, I'm like, What the hell? I don't, it's a totally different experience. I didn't sign up for this far?!
Dominique Astorino 25:51
TWENTY SIX POINT TWO, and no more
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 25:54
Yeah that's it, then we're gonna stop. But you're like, No, it's the expectation piece. And so you've got people working from home, that are not working from home, because that's a job that can work from home, or you should work from home. It's for other reasons, like worry, or anxiety, or convenience, or... and you go, okay, look, it's you are, you need to be checking your fiscal and psychological health. And as they are diminishing, one of the first places you got to look is I gotta be back in the office.
Dominique Astorino 26:31
Yeah, totally. I'm just thinking about your interaction with the dentist, your interaction with the physical therapist. And if this was a patient coming to you recounting these experiences, I feel like you would have a very objective, very logical, you know, thought process on how that patient should respond. But then when you're in it, it's completely different.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 26:52
Yeah, just might as well be a different language.
Dominique Astorino 26:55
Right. It's like, like what you were saying like that. I feel like people say knowledge is half the battle. But I feel like that's kind of false, right? Like you do know. And it's not half the battle.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 27:05
Yeah, I don't know that knowledge is half the battle. I mean, I think knowledge is actually a small piece of it. I mean, behavior change itself involves so many things. Some of it is luck. Some of it is timing. Some of it is a new friend. Some of it is something we're interested in, and like, and so there's, there's a little piece that's knowledge and sometimes the right knowledge, total difference maker. Like one of the things for eating that because I do some work with a couple of really wonderful companies. So one of those is Wondr health WONDR Wondr Health. And one of the things they talked about nutrition once loved one of their principles about eating, and being mindful of how much we're eating is minding the gap, you know, the old British term, "Mind the gap," there's a gap between your brain and your belly of about 25 minutes. And so when we eat fast, we eat past...
Dominique Astorino 28:11
We're jumping right over that gap. Leaping!
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 28:15
And we're, we're consuming all this. And it's going to take about 20 to 25 minutes from when we start eating, for satiety for our stomach to get to a place to go, and hey, you're about full now. Well, if you're eating fast, you're, you've already gone past it. And so that was probably one of those critical pieces of information that I just had to work at implementing, of slowing down.
Dominique Astorino 28:45
Putting it into practice.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 28:46
Literally, yeah, going through, I had a guy that I was working with that was trying to make some changes, and he just wouldn't do it. And he goes, God, the craziest thing happened last week, I started eating dinner, I was only about five or 10 minutes into it. And my partner called and so I had to take the call. And we're talking about something and it took about 10 minutes, and he goes, I came back to eat. And he goes I wasn't that hunger, I was already kind of full. And I didn't eat everything on the plate. I just had a handful of bites. And then I started and I'm like, there you go. Sometimes life will teach you and force you into the same principle and if we can get a little information and just start problem solving, yeah, it's it can get surprisingly it can get surprisingly corrective. In a in a way that's just faster than you can imagine. Totally does you feel like you're so far from it and then bam. You're just in the middle of God. This is great. This is easy. You can ago know you've been working on it for a while. You need movement. Yeah, you don't realize how close you are...
Dominique Astorino 29:57
Totally. I feel like that also kind of this is sort have like a gearshift, but I feel like that idea of like building up these practices. And then finally, it clicks into place really kind of relates to a topic that we talk about a lot, which is coping mechanisms. And we've kind of been, you know, dancing on this topic, this whole conversation. But I would love to get your feedback on, in general, coping mechanisms that have or haven't worked for you for your patients like over the past couple of years, and why some of them are more effective than others.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 30:28
Yeah, I was literally talking with somebody, maybe two or three weeks ago, I was going through something personally, that I've had a number of clients go through and I tend to go through some of the same coping skills and how do you manage those really distressing moments? And it was funny, I was laughing I was just going okay, I am damn sure not going to tell people to do this. Because it didn't work. You Yeah, actually, yeah. And I'm like, Okay, you just gotta remember, not all things are gonna work for all of us all of the time. So the most important thing is that you've got options. Like cuz you and I talked about how much that physical movement is important for us. It's not important for everybody. It doesn't have to be important for you.
Dominique Astorino 31:17
It's not everyone's cup of tea.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 31:19
Yeah. And so if movements it Okay, well, what do you do when movements not working? Hmm, I didn't think about that until it wasn't working. No, no, you need. Yeah, you need to add some variety before this doesn't work. And so I love meditation, I love the breathing. I've got a couple of apps that are go-tos for me. I also love reading. That's a big one. Yeah. And then being physically active is huge. And then talking to that small circle of people that I have helpful conversations with. And whether that circle is buddies, you've known all your life, or your spouse or partner, or a counselor, or a rabbi, or a pastor or a priest. I don't care who it is.
Dominique Astorino 32:15
Your inner circle.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 32:17
Yeah, if the only voice you hear is that one in your head, and that's, you're going to need more, right? You're going to need more voices sometimes. And so. For me, it's i The breathing and the settling and that mindfulness, man that is that that's something that I've really tweaked for my own personal style in life. I don't do it every day. I do it every week, because that just settles okay. What is it I value most? And for me, that's how I do mindfulness is a do a little bit of reading, just quiet and thoughtful. Sometimes I've got a short playlist of stuff that just their messages that really resonate for me with what's most important and valuable in life. And usually, when we are really distressed, really anxious, really worried. We have gotten away from okay, what's really important to me and okay, if I lose this job, or house or relationship you go, okay, is that really the defining thing for me? Or is it my health? Is it my talents and gifts? Is it this relationship with this person that's already set? I don't care where we live for how we get to and from places. I love doing life with you, and you go, Okay, well, that that helps to fight those moments to go Wow. Okay. And so for me, that's what those mindful meditative, prayerful times are of, of really slowing down to go, there's so much noise and information that I need to just what is my intention today? And it makes it sound like I do that every day.
Dominique Astorino 34:13
Definitely.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 34:15
Like, as soon as I had set an intention for the day, I'm like, You idiot, you're sounding I'm like, No, I don't. But those days where I'm really struggling or having a hard time. I really stay anchored to it. And then on the good days, I try to stay anchored. do that same thing again.
Dominique Astorino 34:32
And not forget to take your medicine basically when you're having a good day.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 34:35
Yeah. Yes. And that breathing that belly breathing of meditation that is a game changer. Yeah, it was an absolute it's just a game changer. And then being physically active, right? No one what part is user error? Like I didn't get a lot of sleep or I've just gotten mindful of those coping things. No, no. Okay. Why did I struggle so much today or you go, Okay, well, you drained your physical energy, and I didn't plan well, and I made some, I chose to do some things that probably led this to being a really difficult thing.
Dominique Astorino 35:15
Well, we've got that. And then we've got some ... Yeah, it's like the the user error, like you were just saying .... and then sometimes it's circumstantial, like, oh, the world's in a global pandemic, and there's sort of world war three on the precipice and you know, all this other stuff going on, that's causing stress. So I think the context like you're bringing up is really important to remember like, oh, did I have a really crappy night of sleep? And I'm just having an off day? Or is there something big going on in the world or in my life, which also brings me to another one of your lessons that I've really appreciated, that sometimes it really isn't you? It's not user error. It's the way that our brains are built versus the world around us. Can you elucidate because you are so good with this lesson, and it has helped me so much. And I feel like people listening are gonna really jive with this.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 35:58
Oh, yeah, our brains were not built for this world. They're just simply not. And we are So behind, in managing and protecting our minds. You know, they talk about there's this notion of the knowledge doubling curve, and it goes way back. And a guy who studied it in like the 1900s. So it's like, you know, it takes about 100 years for everything we know, to double. And you go, Okay, well, here three, four years ago, IBM said, with all that the internet is doing, our information is going to double in weeks. Wow. And months, not 100 years. Yeah. And you just go, we have this information overload. And at our most basic, these bodies of ours are built to keep us alive. And to nurture. Right. So that fight and flight and rest and digest. Yeah, that's, those are the fundamentals. Now we should be resting and digesting. More, then we're fighting and fleeing. Right? Because that's what that's we can only eat ... and that's all our nervous system. Right? Because it's eating, it's being present in this conversation or out to lunch with somebody, it's not being at lunch and worrying about a deadline at the office, not rest and digest. You're not going to eat much food, you'll pick at it. And why? Because your body's in that fear mode.
Dominique Astorino 37:32
We're trying to combine these two phases, these separate phases,
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 37:35
Can't do it! I mean, it's absolutely a wreck. And so we've got, it's not just social media, it's media. It's information. And you go okay, are you being mindful of how much information you're consuming? No, because, no. Because the world has always been a scary place. It's a scary place now, because of some of the things that humans are doing to other humans. But you go back 100 years ago, it was a scary place because people died left and right. And I mean, you didn't want to go to a hospital. They were dying faster in hospital, but you go because of infections and plagues. And I mean, the world is a very scary place. We didn't live that long. You get sick or you get an injury. heaven help you if you have or need a root canal.
Dominique Astorino 38:37
Oh my gosh, gross. Infection city.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 38:42
If you've ever had a tooth that abscessed I had one from the crown or a broken tooth, I had to get a crown. I didn't have a root canal. I'm not kidding. You dominate. That tooth hurts so bad. I'm like, I will sell my firstborn like I was. So all my children if you can get rid of you just sorry, guys that have come because you just can't believe how
Dominique Astorino 39:04
Blinding pain.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 39:06
I mean, it is. It is horrible. And I thought later, after the blinding pain was gone. I was like, man, what would you have done 100 years ago with this?
Dominique Astorino 39:18
I think about this a lot now because I watched Outlander recently. So I'm like the 1700s!.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 39:24
Right. Right. Oh, my God. And so you go, the world was a scary place back then. But you didn't really know it. Because you just knew what was in your little community that you could walk to and see and talk to? Oh my god, that's so true. And it used to be we worried about the things in our local neighborhood and in our little city immediate but now we say yes, now we see and know about all the terrible things that humans do to other humans. All over the world.
Dominique Astorino 39:55
There's so much knowledge, so much information.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 39:57
Oh, and a lot of it is really bad.. And you go, why do we know? And are there so many shows about serial killers? And not as many shows and biographies? About these amazing men and women that have done things through the ages?
Dominique Astorino 40:17
Oh my god, I say this all the time. I need less Anna Delvey, more Ted Lasso.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 40:22
Yes. Yes. And you go with and so all of that people are drawn to or these sensationally crazy, one off human behaviors, and we start to think everybody needs to worry about it, and you go, No, everybody doesn't need to worry about it. And it's not an equal threat for everybody. And we, and it's not too soon, and you gotta look COVID is a great example. Yeah, I've said all along since they want I don't want it. It's, it is a virus that for some people can be really deadly for most people, is it? No, no, it is not. And that is a statistical statement. It is not. You realize, you get so worried about you dying of COVID. And you go, you have none of the risk factors, right. What you're actually going to die from most likely is your depression, your anxiety, the stress of... you don't have those risk factors. Now, why are you isolating yourself because your quality of life is going to go down. And you go, Okay, you're just worried about one little bug. And I talk about and you can't even hardly do go, okay. It most likely it's not going to take your life, right. What's going to take your life is heart disease, or obesuty.
Dominique Astorino 41:46
Yeah. In America, for sure. Yeah.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 41:49
Oh, it's it's absolutely your quality of life. And the and your longevity will absolutely be compromised by either of those illnesses. And those, by the way, are still happening in record numbers, while at the same time COVID deaths are continuing to go down. And you go, why have we scared all of these children, and high school students and even college students? And so now they're suffering psychologically, their mental health is suffering. We may have actually given them a lifelong disorder. And you go, that is a price we did not have to pay. We could have been more thoughtful with populations that are not as at risk to go okay. Well, we don't do this during severe... There are some severe flus not all flus are severe, but there are some severe illnesses. And you go okay, well, let's be mindful of that. But we didn't do that. We scared everybody.
Dominique Astorino 42:51
Yeah. What I'm gathering a lot from this. And what we were just talking about is that the context is really important. Like, yes, there are things that are scary. There are things that are threatening, but the context like what you were talking about with 100 years ago, 200 years ago, like knowing the context of the threat, knowing the context of the stressor, is really important in like shifting your perspective, right and shifting how you view things. How you internalize and process.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 43:17
Yes, yeah. And be impeccable with your words. Right?
Dominique Astorino 43:21
Oh, yes. Love that.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 43:22
Yeah. Is it true that yeah, hey, people, some of the people that get COVID die? Yes. Well, am I probably going to die? Nope. I'm probably not going to die of COVID. Why I personally don't have any of the risk factors, right. am I likely to die? No, you're not likely to die. Could I die from COVID? Yeah, I could. But I am not likely to. I'm not probably going to. Is it possible? Yeah. It's possible. But it's also possible I get Ebola. It's also possible I get cancer. It's also possible, in fact, more likely that I get killed on my drive home.
Dominique Astorino 44:05
Yeah, car accidents are what number three? Cause of death?
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 44:08
Yes, yes. And you go well, in the adolescent and early young adult, you for sure are more likely to die in a car wreck or an accident than COVID. And so you go. Now, that's just one example of information that you're not helping yourself. You go, Hey, make your assessment. Get a feel for that now. Go Live. Yeah, go live and stop allowing your mind to be overwhelmed. Because if you do, you're going to set off that fight or flight response. And you're gonna have a very small world
Dominique Astorino 44:44
And it's hard to kick that off, like that fight or flight. Like once that's on it's really hard to turn off, I feel like.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 44:50
It absolutely is. But when you start stepping away from it, you'll be amazed. Okay. And your phone. These phones. Hey, if you Like, flicked it where was I? And I was like, again, I got very angry at myself. And yeah, so let me be clear. Yes, I do talk to myself. And it's almost always cussing and very, like if you didn't think of the worst high school coach in the world, you're like, "That guy would lose his job." That's how I talked to me.
Dominique Astorino 45:18
That's my inner voice!
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 45:20
That's my inner voice. My inner voice is like a horrible coach from the 50s who would never have a job. And so I was, I was going somewhere and I forgot my phone. I was like, going up to like, literally just running to like, pick up burger. I forget. And I was like, dang it. I left my phone. It's literally Dominique. It is. I'm not kidding you. It's maybe a three minute drive from my house. I could walk it and barely sweat. And so, I got so mad at me for leaving for the thought of, Oh, I gotta go back and get my phone. What for? You ordered an effing burger. You're gonna get there, and they're gonna go hey, hey, Mr. Kevin. Here's your here are your burgers. We need 23 bucks. I'm like, do you have your wallet? Yes, go and shut the eff up! But it was this notion. My phone. Oh, I'm telling you. It's like a 1950s gym coach, but I needed that. Because otherwise I'm like, Oh, you better go get that phone. Why? It's not oxygen. Right? Right. Right. It's not my life. So no, okay. Do something. You know what I mean? Just like Stop it, man. You don't need it. Disconnect, unplug, and see if you can build that
Dominique Astorino 46:41
Yeah, work that muscle. Honestly, that's something I've been really, really practicing, like leaving my phone. When I go for walks, leaving my phone in a different room when I'm with my family. And that, you know, a while ago seemed insane. And my whole family and friends used to make fun of me for how often I was on my phone when I was just like, basically, social networking before social networking existed. Right now. You know, I'm working this muscle. I think you know this already. I take weeks off of technology. Sometimes I'll take like a whole week with no computer, no phone. And I have been really working with muscle. And you know, it's working when you're the only one of your family in the room who doesn't have their phone on them. And everyone is like scrolling through something. I'm like, wait a minute, I was that person. So I get it. I get the addiction. And it takes a while.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 47:26
Oh, if you do nothing else this year, you have to start doing that just a little because it's amazing. And so I you know, I've got a podcast. And, I was talking about this subject. And I do not know why in the HELL my wife listens to my podcast. I'm like... what do you seriously not get tired of hearing my voice? Listen ...
Dominique Astorino 47:51
That's really sweet!
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 47:53
I guess it is but I'm like, Babe, are you okay? I mean, why.... I mean, so, so I knew this. I hear different times. But we're sitting there watching a movie and she goes, shouldn't you have your phone off? And I'm like, she said it like 'don't you remember?' And I'm like, 'Babe, I feel like you're quoting me.' She goes, 'I am.' And I'm like, dad gamut. We have a rule. You can't quote what I say...
Dominique Astorino 48:23
Back to myself!
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 48:24
...And use it against me!
Dominique Astorino 48:26
Don't use my words against me!
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 48:28
Don't use that against me. And so I'm like, wow, I actually so appreciate it. And so I was like, Yeah, you know what, set it down. Leave it in the kitchen. Don't... And when you do that a little look to do something little that helps give you an objective measure of how are you doing in this area? And when you leave your phone somewhere, or you're the only one sitting there not on your phone? It can actually be this this wonderful insight into Ooh, okay, that's one of the areas I gotta trim up. Because that's causing me some problems,
Dominique Astorino 49:08
Right? Would you say that practicing tech disconnection is a type of coping mechanism for the world we live in?
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 49:16
Oh, it's absolute... It's.. Yes, absolutely. We have to step away from this constant connectedness. I mean, I noticed that and you go you know, and I could make the excuse. Well, I see patients and I have to be available. I'm like, Yeah, but it's Saturday. And I'm I'm doing something with my wife or with my kids. She go no, I don't need my phone in my pocket. I don't need it, I can leave it in the kitchen for an hour or two and come back to.
Dominique Astorino 49:49
Yeah just a small period of time I think is so hard for people to get their head around. And I'm not saying that in a judgmental way. I was the same.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 49:56
No, I know. I know. Or take your smartwatch off.
Dominique Astorino 49:59
Yeah. I had to do that.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 50:00
Yeah, I know. I know! Oh, yeah. And you go, that is kind of a wonderful little insight as well, of going, wow. I've started to notice that a lot. Because I'm, if my phone buzzes and it's in my pocket, and I don't have my watch on, I'm like, No, I don't need to look at that right now. You know, it's, if it keeps buzzing for the next minute, then I'll be like, Okay, maybe it's maybe it's an emergency, but you know, you go. But if you have to think about it, you know, I'll still know. So looking for little things to go. Okay. Where is my stress coming from? And what am I doing to add to it? And I gotta tell you, I, I rarely turn the news on.
Dominique Astorino 50:54
Oh my god same I took it all off my phone!
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 50:57
Oh, yeah, I just don't, I don't. So if I want to know about a subject I'll go online...
Dominique Astorino 51:04
Right, and specifically look for it
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 51:07
That's it. Because I just, if I do watch the news, it's almost always local. But I bet I haven't watched the news from start to finish in five years.
Dominique Astorino 51:22
It's so good for your brain.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 51:25
Oh, my gosh. And um, you know, now I stay plugged into what's going on.
Dominique Astorino 51:29
You don't have your head in the sand
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 51:31
No, but I'm going to step in and read it and step back out. Because it's...
Dominique Astorino 51:35
It's a boundary
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 51:36
It just has an effect. It just, it absolutely starts to color, the kind of people we are and how we talk about other people. Oh, my goodness.
Dominique Astorino 51:47
Sort of like if you know, turning off your phone is medicine. listening to the news feels like poison, like, feels like drugs? And not the fun kind.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 51:56
I'm telling you. And you go, okay. Yeah. And then you just go Okay, imagine watch the news with some person sitting next to you in a little white lab coat a little clipboard, to write on then after you turn off. They're gonna ask you just a couple of questions. One, do you feel better now than you did before you started watching the news? It's your mood improved? Or has it become more agitated or depressed? And you go, no, no, step away. Go do something else.
Dominique Astorino 52:26
Okay this is good. I feel like we've covered a lot of coping mechanisms. And this is kind of giving me an idea. For a part two. If you're interested. Listeners, maybe we'll have another episode with our favorite therapist about identifying those sources of stress. Like, is it your phone? Is it the news? Like where are these big stressors in your life coming from maybe we could go over some like tips on how to figure that out.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 52:50
Oh, is it your job? Is it your finances? Is it your relationships? Yeah.
Kind of cool, yeah?Yeah. Okay. Yeah, there's there's definitely a short list of usual subjects that you're like, oh, I can tell you, I can talk to you for five minutes and tell you what it is.
Dominique Astorino 53:06
Okay. Well, let's do that. And then we'll have you know, another part two.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 53:10
Yeah. Oh, it's so great.
Dominique Astorino 53:14
This will be good. We'll have a we'll have a bonus content, or like a bonus episode for our Patreon members. And we'll go over identifying your biggest stressors.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 53:22
Oh, man, I'm telling you, if you do nothing else, figure out what your shortlist is. And then figure out the other side of the equation, which is, where's your happy place? I mean, where is it? You get to that you're like, oh, man, the world just is a wonderful place.
Dominique Astorino 53:38
Where's your medicine?
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 53:40
That's it, man. Where's your medicine? Okay, it's out there. And I promise you, it's in the world.
Dominique Astorino 53:44
It's out there. And you have helped me find that so much so often. And part of that is through your lessons on your podcast. Would you like to introduce our listeners to your show?
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 53:54
Sure. It's the Struggle well live well worry less. So, yeah, it's no, no, it's very similar years of just going hey, let's just have candid conversations about the worry and stress and anxiety of people that are enjoying life. It's not either or, sometimes really enjoying life and we're also having a really difficult time.
Dominique Astorino 54:19
So they're not mutually exclusive. I think that's a really big lesson.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 54:22
No, they're not and, and I'm as mad about that as you are.
Dominique Astorino 54:27
We don't want to hear this but it's actually true. Yeah, we're existing in the mess and in the joy is the same time.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 54:35
Exactly exactly
Dominique Astorino 54:36
But it's fine. This is fine.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 54:38
Yeah it is, it's okay.
Dominique Astorino 54:40
We're fine. Okay, Dr. G. Thank you so much. This was just the most joyful conversation. You are the first recording session first guest here in the studio in San Diego. Well, technically, you're calling in from Texas seriously. Are we the most unlikely friendship of like a man in Texas A psychologist clinical psychologist. And this random girl out in California with a golden retriever ...
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 55:03
Health and wellness guru!! Out on the beach that gets to play with their dog in the surf. And then COVID ... I'm like, we've never met in person!
Dominique Astorino 55:13
we've just talked a lot...
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 55:16
...I feel like I know you really well. So one of these one of these days, I'll have to be in studio.
Dominique Astorino 55:20
Oh my gosh, yeah, please come visit us, Stella, my dog would be so thrilled to meet a dog lover like you. So we've got to plan on this. But thank you again. Just so honored to have you on the show. So grateful for all of your words of wisdom and your lessons. Do you have any parting words for anyone listening? Who is just telling themselves "this is fine" going through the mess?
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 55:43
Yeah, man, it's oh God... Just keep it simple. I mean, when you're going through something, whether it's COVID, or a health issue or relationship issue, there is a lot of wisdom in 'Just win the day,' just focus on today, I want to make it through a little bit better than I did yesterday. And when we can string a couple of days together like that, it's shocking how much easier life gets, it just does. So keep fighting, keep working. You're just looking at solving a problem. That's all we're doing it's just that problem was close. Yes, stay after it, it's worth it.
Dominique Astorino 56:24
The bar is on the floor. Lower the bar!
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 56:29
Lower it until you get some moment and then raise that thing!
Dominique Astorino 56:32
Thank you so much for being here.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 56:35
I love what you're doing. I so appreciate it. And it was just been wonderful being a part of it.
Dominique Astorino 56:40
Thank you so much, and we will talk very soon.
Dr. Kevin Gilliland 56:44
Awesome. Take care.
Dominique Astorino 56:46
AD: And a big thanks to all of you on Patreon. If you're interested in supporting our podcast financially, head to patreon.com/this is fine podcast. And if you just want to support us in general, hit the subscribe button. You know how it goes. Smash that subscribe button, like-comment-subscribe. If you could leave us a review, five stars, if you think we've earned it, that'd be so helpful. And we are so appreciative.
OUTRO: Thanks for joining us for what is — for legal reasons — not a therapy session, today on this episode of This Is Fine! I hope you learned a ton, you feel validated all that good stuff. Come back here next week for a series we're calling Trauma Hour, which is like happy hour, but where we unpack our traumas and then we use humor as a coping mechanism. We love coping mechanisms. You're gonna love it. I swear. We'll see you then. Bye!
CREDITS: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of This Is Fine! I've been your host Dominique Michelle Astorino. We're based in San Diego, recording in studio at DLI Productions in Pacific Beach with Emmy award-winning sound designer Dan De La Isla. This is a comedy and advice podcast but for legal reasons, this entire podcast is a joke and none of it is medical advice. To download a transcript or learn more visit thisisfinepodcast.com
